Is Rain Impossible
Hi Phil,I note that the ECG website continues to advertise Professor Andy McIntosh's claim that: "Rain is impossible".
PROFESSOR McINTOSH: "My knowledge of thermodynamics has shown me that all mechanical systems (such as an engine or fridge or aeroplane etc.) require not only energy but ordered machinery in order to work. Thus simply adding energy to a lump of matter will not turn this into a machine which can do useful work."
The Earth is a "Lump of matter" to which energy is added in the form of radiation from the sun. Water evaporates from the oceans, and the wind blows the clouds over my garden where it is precipitated as rain which waters my lawns. Consequently, the Earth operates in a thermodynamic cycle and performs this very useful work.
Regards
John
Hi John,
Thanks for your email sorry it has taken so long to reply. As I have said I am no expert in thermodynamics so I will answer from the perspective of lay person. It is quite possible professor McIntosh would give a much more in depth answer. I will try argue why your objection is not Earth shattering for me as a Creationist and what I understood from what Prof McIntosh said.
Firstly Prof McIntosh did not claim that rain was impossible this interpretation is your own, so it is not fair to attribute it to him. When asked if he thought rain was possible he replied that it was.
I have two main objections to your argument:
The Earth is Just a Lump of Matter
As a Creationist I do not accept that there is nothing special about the Earth's position relative to the Sun:
Recent studies of the carbonate-silicate geochemical cycle have shown that the planetary atmosphere is controlled by a very delicate balance, involving the subtle interplay of many factors. This balance is so delicate that if the Earth were only a few percent closer to the sun, surface temperatures would be far higher than the boiling point of water, precluding all possibility of a life-sustaining atmosphere.
Similarly, if the Earth were only a few percent farther from the sun, the concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere would become so high that "the atmosphere would not be breathable by human beings." Fortunately, the orbit of the planet Earth just happens to lie at the crucial distance from the sun that permits the formation of a life-sustaining atmosphere.
Professor Nathan Aviezer
There is evidence that both Venus and Mars had water on them yet neither has a water cycle. In these cases energy plus matter did not result in a sustainable water cycle.
Again I will argue that the Earth is more than a lump of matter because it is in a near circular orbit. i.e. The distance from the Sun to the Earth is relativity constant (if it varied more than a few percent we would have no water cycle). I have programmed a simulator called Can you put the moon into orbit? (you need Firefox to view this). This shows that putting an object that is not in a near circular orbit into one is a non-trivial problem. This is because any orbiting object will return to the place where it starts (be it the ground or outer-space). By logic this means that the simplest explanation for an object being in a stable orbit is that is that always has been (to me this points to an intelligent cause). So my challenge is: can you simulate a naturalistic event that can places particles into a near circular orbit. Note if your theory relies on there being a cloud of particles already in orbit you will have to show how this happened too.
Useful Work
My second objection is related to the term "useful work". You claim that the water cycle does useful work because it waters your garden. However I would argue that a water cycle on a barren planet would do no useful work. All wind and rain do in the absence of life is cause erosion. And this is an example increasing disorder (or entropy).
Life is full of examples of ordered biochemical machinery. These are not random arrangements of chemicals (as evolutionists freely admit) nor could they be described as just a lumps of matter. The Origin of Life (see video) remains a mystery to scientists so it should not be taken for granted as being un-designed non-machinery. The example of a cultivated garden is not an example of a chance arrangement of matter either.
In The God Delusion Richard Dawkins quotes Douglas Adams:
"Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"
John Lenox replied at his recent Edinburgh talk:
I've seen many gardens without fairies. But I have never seen one that did not have a gardener.
I am aware that this answer will raise many other questions. Some of which would take an essay rather than a paragraph to answer. My purpose here is only to refute the argument that Prof McIntosh claimed that rain was impossible. My simple answer is that without the machinery of life the water cycle only causes erosion. I do not understand this to be useful work.
Andy McIntosh only made a brief mention of thermodynamics in his talk "Design information and the Word of God". He expressed the desire to present a whole talk on the subject on a future visit. Andy is a Professor of Thermodynamics and Combustion Theory so my expectation is that he will be able to bring a more technical answer than my one.
Regards
Phil
P.s.
Having put a naturalistic argument above I'd like to leave you with a biblical perspective. If you left your garden to nature your lawn would not be very ordered. When man disobeyed God, God cursed the ground and said it would now produce thorns and thistles when he tried to work it. From now on everything would wear out:
Lift up your eyes to the heavens, look at the earth beneath; the heavens will vanish like smoke, the earth will wear out like a garment and its inhabitants die like flies. But my salvation will last forever, my righteousness will never fail.
Isaiah 51:6
Jesus said:
Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.
Mark 13:31
Jesus was right about one thing, he is one of the few people whose words can still be quoted nearly 2,000 years later. He seemed to know back then that this would be the case. We live at a time when the wearing out of the Earth is in the headlines everyday. Nor have we seen great gains in life expectancy since the book of Psalms was written centuries before Christ:
The length of our days is seventy years - or eighty, if we have the strength; yet their span is but trouble and sorrow, for they quickly pass, and we fly away.
Psalm 90:10
While machines can convert energy into useful work the machines themselves wear out and the power sources they use run out. Science shows we have the potentiality to regenerate our whole body from almost any cell in the in the body, yet each of us is dying:
A voice says, "Cry out." And I said, "What shall I cry?"
Isaiah 40:6-8
"All men are like grass, and all their glory is like the flowers of the field. The grass withers and the flowers fall, because the breath of the LORD blows on them. Surely the people are grass. The grass withers and the flowers fall, but the word of our God stands forever."
The Bible says that death comes through sin and that all die because all have sinned. However the Bible claims that Jesus did not sin. When Jesus died on cross he had a crown of thorns on his head. Christians believe that this is not an accident, but it is symbolic of him taking on his own body the curse that God spoke over nature when Adam sinned. Thorns and thistles were symbols of all the decay that would take place in nature. Christians believe that Jesus is God, through whom everything was created, yet he let the thorns that were our punishment pierce his own brow. By taking the punishment we deserve in our place he has legally cleared the way for us to live in a world without sin or decay.
"There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, for the old order of things has passed away." He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!"
Revelation 21:4,5
We now have a choice, to accept or reject this offer. This means changing our mind about Jesus and humbly accepting God's forgiveness. We also need to ask for his help to reform our lives so they are acceptable to live in a perfect place and to last forever.
Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and may go through the gates into the city. Outside are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolaters and everyone who loves and practices falsehood.
Revelation 22:14,15
If God is real then he can hear us wherever we are and he promises that if we seek him with all our hearts we will find him.
If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives. 1 John 1:8-10
Jesus promises that he will never leave us or forsake us and if we allow him to work in our lives he will compete that work and make us ready for eternity.